Why Elon is Wrong About Hydrogen Fuel

Avaldati 1 juuni 2021
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A few weeks ago Wheelhouse made an episode about how Hydrogen cars were supposed to be the future of automobiles. And in that episode Nolan made a pretty good economic argument for why they failed. An argument that everyone’s favorite billionaire, Elon Musket, might agree with. But like all things car related, I get curious about the engineering side of things. Outside of politics, why couldn’t the car of the future be hydrogen powered? Well today on B2B we’re gonna take a look at hydrogen-fueled tech, and explain why Elon Musk might just be wrong about hydrogen cars.

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Kommentaarid

  • This dude is incredible. Keep making content tom delongs little brother. Youre the man i learned alot

  • Im intrigued, but if u say musk is wrong just throw yourself onto the pile of other neighsaying bodies yourself.

  • If they make hydrogen with fossil fuel i wouldn't approve or use but if made from solar or wind i will all for it. Solar make most of it power from morning to afternoon and wind work most of the time. The government have to be active with this and phase out of fossil for the most part in most field areas to meet 2050 goal.

  • Why not just run the hydrogen in place of gas in a normal combustion engine.

  • 10:14 You just need to look at an interview with the Hyperion engineer to get into the science of how it does that. It's very simple actually, super expensive, but simple. Just like any other hand-made carbon fiber car and using titanium instead of cheaper aluminum for other parts, they get a super light car. That's adorable. It certainly is beautiful. Then you take this giant body and stick 2 seats in it and cram in storage tanks that probably don't pass crash tests nor protect the passengers from them and fill the rest of the cargo space with supercapacitors, you have yourself a 2 passenger car that can accelerate like there's no tomorrow and with long-range. You could take a Toyota Mirai and replace its Li-ion hybrid battery with low energy density supercapacitors and consume all the luggage space as well as the rear passenger room in order to get it to get out of its own way, but who would buy it? It already only has the interior space of a subcompact, you'd be turning it into less room than a smart car with the exterior dimensions of a full-size sedan.

  • My car goes to 60 mph in 10 secs, can I get a moment of silence too pls

  • That group hug

  • 🤣 You're delusional.

  • Actually Anode is negative and Cathode is positive

  • Would have been a good vizuation if you weren't acting like a tool.

  • Imagine humidity levels if every car in the world would pee 5 gallons of water daily

  • $FCEL

  • I’m not blindly agreeing with Elon or anything but hydrogen fuel cells is just pointless in cars, I mean they still need batteries to function nor do they make engine sounds, so why not just batteries.

  • Oof

  • Hydrogen fueled vehicle has been introduced in the Philippines since the 1970's using a small and compact reactor, then there was another one who made it using electrolysis with just the use of a normal water filter container both tech just use the same concept using the Hydrogen from water as fuel and the Oxygen goes straight in the exhaust where it meets up again the used Hydrogen and the by-product is water again. The problem with this is that the normal car engine is designed to burn fossil fuel not Hydrogen so there is a reliability issue and you need to properly customize those supply hose from the source of the Hydrogen to the engine because one small leak can cause an explosion. The other problem is the Lack of support because this can create a huge impact on fossil fuel economy as a means of alternative fuel, "just imagine you ran out of water and the only thing you need to do is ask water and your good to go!" and the last problem is to why this didn't catch on is because of the inventors of this technology choose to be patriotic telling that the Filipino people should be the first one to benefit from this. click this for more info. eeclone.info/glo/tXivbqBme4t1nHY/video

  • nah, I love Donut Media education bit, but Hydrogen comes from Natural Gas Companies owned by oil/energy companies. Tony Seba laid it out better: eeclone.info/glo/lWfPsGqeopyj2nY/video

  • The big issue with FC only cars is the power, the big issue with battery cars is the range, the combining both is the better choice. Toyota do it in the new Mirai, but they choice isn't focused on power.

    • @Mario Brandán calling a capacitor a battery is like calling a puddle a lake because they both store water.

    • @Mario Brandán as I said. Physical restraints. You can’t get around any of that.

    • @Mario Brandán that’s why they will be slower, why they will be worse handling due to higher centre of gravity and higher weight. They will always be more expensive to operate, forget the fact that the hydrogen produces will sell hydrogen at a profit to distributors who sell it at a profit ontop of that to end consumers. Forget the transport, forget the cost of water, it uses 3 times as much electricity from the same source. It will always be *at least* 3 times more expensive to operate hydrogen than battery electrics. So why would you pay 3 times as much per km for something that performs worse, handles worse, has less space and utility and is less safe?

    • Capacitors storage electric energy, then you can say is a battery, the same is for FC. You can calculate the best point of using 2 different technologies between energy, power and weight if you fix 2 of the variables. For example, you can use LiPoFe4 batteries in the same way at supercapacitors because their high power density and life cycles and in the other way, you can use flat LiPo like the ones in smartphones in the same way at FC because their high energy density

    • @Mario Brandán batteries and SC is the only combination that makes sense, you add SC they’re light weight and small. They don’t impact any of the characteristics of the car expect for purchase cost, and improved performance. Hydrogen however, doesn’t offer that. It negatively impacts performance handling and safety. It barely makes up for that inconvenience with range. The Tesla Model 3 performance getting 325 miles to a charge, the mirai only getting 75 miles further to a tank of hydrogen. Except the model 3 is significantly cheaper to run, the mirai as

  • You didn’t explained nothing. Result was just bullshit. Btw Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess said several times that hydrogen in cars is dumb idea and you need listen to the science. ‘Listen to science’: Volkswagen CEO against hydrogen cars, Elon Musk agrees auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/news/listen-to-science-volkswagen-ceo-against-hydrogen-cars-elon-musk-agrees-41621579993404.html

  • Hydrogen cars probably exist because the auto industry didn't anticipate rapidly falling battery and solar pv costs. So instead of the hydrogen economy we get the hydrogen agronomy.

  • Isn't the problem with hydrogen fuel that it takes more energy to separate it than you get by reacting it?

  • Isn’t cummins pushing hard for hydrogen engines?

  • Pound for pound, I think it will take about 15 years for batteries to have the same power density as hydrogen... More immediately, hydrogen fuel cell technology can be used immediately and really would be best for heavy duty purposes like big rigs, aircraft, Earth moving equipment, whole house generator, etc...

  • There is an awesome solution to the lacking infrastructure: The Fraunhofer Institute for Material Science, recently published a Magnesium based paste to store hydrogen for multiple years, it is an easily transportable liquid and has a similar energy density to gasoline. The Magnesium can be reused. www.ifam.fraunhofer.de/de/Institutsprofil/Standorte/Dresden/Wasserstofftechnologie/hydrolyse.html www.fraunhofer.de/de/presse/presseinformationen/2021/februar-2021/wasserstoffantriebe-fuer-e-scooter-und-co.html

  • The club music is actually pretty good. I like it.

  • You should talk about Toyota's new hydrogen combustion engine!!!

  • I know it's not technically about cars, but how difficult would it be to refit gasoline stations into hydrogen? Change of tank and pump?

  • Why is technology fixated on H powered electric cars? How about "water cracking" technology to burn H in a combustion engine, where the waste product is oxygen?

    • @Engineering the weird guy www.researchgate.net/publication/332413579_Review_of_Hydrogen_Fuel_for_Internal_Combustion_Engines

    • Wat

  • I mean they laughed at Elon when he was creating electrical cars so…

    • @Joseph Blow really, I’m sure deep down you understand what the he/she was trying to say so I won’t bother.

    • Is that what you’ve heard? I heard someone else created the concept of the electric performance car, created the battery literally that runs it. Musk put up some money and then forced the guy who created the car out of the company. The dude’s a conman. Before you say how come he’s a rich and Tesla stock is high, just remember Bernie Madoff, Enron, Worldcom were all doing great till they weren’t doing great.

  • its a competitor to electric cars, of course elon is gonna crap all over it. the elon fanboys keep forgetting that elon has to promote his companies. look at lidar, elon been crapping over that for a decade, but now most of the car companies are using lidar or lidar maps for self driving

    • All that besides the point of this video however, as Elon was emphatically correct about hydrogen. It’s stupid. I can explain all the reason why if you don’t believe me.

    • Meanwhile Tesla’s are fast approaching self driving using $3 cameras which isn’t geofenced and restricted to mapped areas and can recognise street signs such as roadwork signs and changed speed limited and can recognise repainted road lines or traffic cones, instead of a $2,500 Lidar set up that has to be restricted to already mapped areas which take several people several hundred rounds of driving on company pay to map an small area because lidar can’t read street signs, make out road lines or street cones.

  • ELON MUSK is positioned for hydrogen cars. All he needs to fo is add the fuel celss instead of batteries.

    • Well you’d actually need to keep half the batteries, add fuel cell and add fuel storage and add additional coolant systems then redesign the chassis to protect the fuel tanks against explosion and to be corrosive resistant to continuous exposure to water vapour.

  • Alternative title: "WhY wE nO sCieNce oR MatHs goOd w tEh hyDrogEnz"

  • im just laughing by looking at this guy . How dumb his statement is . if hydrogen production cause Carbon monoxide and carbon di oxide , then how are they successfull 🤣🤣

    • EV cars are produced by factories ran by fossil fuels, not 100% renewable energy like they claim. They’re destroying wild life in desserts and forests to build these factories. EV production uses more fossil fuels than fkn gasoline itself! Other rare minerals are consumed in this process just to produce low to no em emission vehicles but at the expense of destroying the planet even more.

  • With all that water on the road wouldn’t it cause ICE build up in cold seasons in some states ?

  • I love to see Donut Media making more videos about EVs

  • I just want Donut to know that we love JareBear and B2B

  • Why can't we mix hydrogen car and ev. Like a hybrid.

  • I think battery-powered electric cars need fewer parts than a hydrogen car. If you are going to produce hydrogen you need energy that usually comes from fossil fuel and even if it is renewable you will need a network just for the production of hydrogen which would make the fuel cost high (but could change over time). The storage and transport of hydrogen is another problem as it is highly explosive and requires noble metals. Now production is made from hydrocarbons (methane) and petroleum derivatives.

  • Elon is not wrong about Hydrogen, but you are wrong, think twice

  • The thumbnail made me laugh xD

  • Your BF/GF explanation makes it even more confusing.

  • Every time I hear the word "Electrolyte" I just think of Tropic Thunder.

  • Them analogies 👌🏼

  • I don't get it tho Elon is right. if we use up all the hydrogen, we wont have water.

  • He missed an important part. Electrolysis of water is very energy inefficient process with very high electricity requirements. We would rather use electricity to directly charge the batteries.

  • Instead of producing electricity with the hydrogen why not burn it.

  • Use electricity to power your car, or use electricity to create hydrogen that is converted back to electricity via an onboard system that then powers your car...yeah the choice is simple. Hydrogen cars are supported by companies that want to distribute hydrogen. Simple physics people. Give up the stupid hydrogen car arguments.

  • 1 in 44 hate this video

    • Because its TRASH!!!

  • 1 important thing to remember is you can store Hydrogen as a solid too using a metal complex. Also you don't need water to get hydrogen, you can fish it out of other substances too

  • Another advantage is that is way ahead in terms of energy storage. Batteries degrade over time. Hydrogen can be stores endlessly with no energy loss. It can solve storage for renewable energy. Fuel cells are also getting smaller and more compact. Also I always thought as ev to be a stepping stone to hydrogen Evs.

    • Well no actually. While batteries do degrade over time, storing Energy as hydrogen has two fundamental drawbacks. 1.) it’s inefficient, you lose around 60% of the energy by storing it as hydrogen. Producing hydrogen has a 30% loss, and converting it back into electricity has a 40% loss. You’d have to store energy in a battery for decades before it becomes worthwhile to store it as hydrogen. And that’s also ignoring losses from liquefying, compressing and transport of hydrogen. 2.) you can’t actually contain hydrogen. Hydrogen atoms are so small that they can leak through solid metal. You can design special tanks out of exotic materials to mitigate this but you can’t stop it as the atoms are too small. Additionally in the process of hydrogen interacting with/leaking through metal. It embrittles it. Meaning the longer you store it, the weaker it gets until it fails.

  • Love this channel but y’all got so much wrong on here it’s just cringey to watch. At least get your basics correct if you’re this big a channel smh

  • As much as i like you guys, but a car enthusiasts youtube channel cant beat automotive companies and even a whole nation of japan on research and reasoning. Now imagine if japan govt make a video reply to you guys, complete with their achievement so far. For a video channel, this is to aggressive 😆🙏

  • @3:40 Seems that's backwards. Electrons travel from the negative terminal to the positive.

  • He didn't even acknowledge any of the arguments against hydrogen, then concluded that Elon is wrong.

  • What did i learn from this? Well H2 / fuel cell is still no threat to batteries and our favourite billionaire is still right. BUT Donut Media is definitely a serious threat to mainstream media entertainment programs.

  • STORAGE . This coming from a guy who blew up his first 4 hydrogen Wet cells in 2013. BTW Got 63 mpg from 28. Hydrogen is so dangerous! It was like a grenade of sodium hydroxide (ACID) and ELECTROLYTES going off under my hood twice, and twice in the face! LMAO. Luckily still have a face! I'm spooked after those lol. I support water gas.

  • I don’t see water I saw threesome.

  • not..that easy. its problematic to store hydrogen. and its allso a low energy density thing. look up NH3 association and NH3 based fuel cells. now thats the deal, only 10 bar pressure required and far more energy dense than hydrogen or lithium battery stuff. with all the advantages.

  • You literally just explained hydrogen in a a goofy way and basically did not address why it is inferior to electric.

  • I dont get it. Why would i go with hydrogen to power the battery when i can skip the hydrogen and just go straight to the battery? You still need that battery no matter what. I still think battery hot swapping is the greater future.

  • Why can’t we just use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine? Why convert it to electricity?

  • It's more likely to kick out gasoline than EV's. Just replace the gas at existing stations with hydrogen and the infrastructure problem mostly solves itself. It just comes down to startup cost at the moment.

    • Hydrogen cannot use existing infrastructure. The nearest you're going to get is LPG infrastructure. However here is why that cant work. 1.) Hydrogen atoms are so small that they can leak through solid metal. not only would the containment and hoses for LPG not be suitable for this but neither would the gaskets and seals. It would leak like a pasta strainer, which is significant for a highly explosive gas with no smell. not only that but when it does leak through metal it embrittles it. significantly weakening the metal. 2.) Liquid Hydrogen needs to be stored at over 32 times the pressure of LPG. This means that the containment vessels, even if they were made of a hydrogen suitable material would not be suitable for hydrogen as it would not be able to contain the pressures required. 3.) Hydrogen has a very low inversion temperature. The inversion temperature is the temperature at which a gas goes from super cooling as its decompressed to superheating. that means whilst LPG infrastructure is designed to handle decreasing temperatures as the gas is transported or drained. Hydrogen heat up the infrastructure which means they are fundamentally incompatible. All this means is that you would have to build and entire hydrogen infrastructure *from scratch.* To install hydrogen at an existing fuel station you would need to bury it, not just install new hoses or pumps. You need to buy hydrogen because of how explosive it is. This means you would have to demolish the existing fuel station and re-build it from the ground up.... for every fuel station. meanwhile you can easily add a super charger or destination charger at any location which has electricity for a fraction of the cost, time, effort. Including any fuel station.

  • 7:13 lmfao

  • Aside from the infrastructure issue is that the hydrogen fuel cells take up a lot of space in the car and would outweigh the engine and gas tank they're trying to supplant. Then there's the cost. Hydrogen is rather expensive and hard to find commercially. Not to mention, the catalytic units will have to be replaced every so often, just like a catalytic converter, but at even greater cost. Next issue is that, in case of an accident, your car stands a very good chance of becoming the Hindenburg. Hydrogen burns very hot and very fast, and iirc, fire in the fuel cells can release some very toxic smoke, fumes and vapors from the materials involved. Lastly, I think he enjoyed dressing up as a girl just a little too much.

  • If it’s as expensive as gasoline now, what’s the point? Who can fill up their hydrogen car at home? They better step it up or “Elon” will leave ’em in the dust.

  • Less looks like this:

  • 10min in, still not sure why hydrogen is bad...

  • The lack of power for any electrical motor is usually caused by battery's internal resistance. With hydrogen ev, the resistance is created by the slow moving rate of H ions. But capacitor don't have internal resistance. Why didn't they hook up a capacitor in parallel to the hydrogen cells, so that it does the fast discharge during acceleration and accumulates energy during low speed and even speed conditions?

  • Are these cars going to have an exhaust spitting water?

  • This video seriously missed the mark. No comparison of costs? No mention of the inefficiency of using electricity to produce hydrogen then using that hydrogen to generate electricity to run the car...vs just using electricity straight to run a car. The arguments used against EV's, like limited range, charging times, charging infrastructure, are fast becoming non-issues as the tech matures. H2 has potential in long-range trucking, shipping, etc. but it's safe to say EV's have won the passenger vehicle battle. I'm siding with Elon on this one and I'm far from being his biggest fan.

    • Bro it's b2b, he just talks about the technology of the car if you want to see price comparison and their efficiency go watch wheelhouse by nolan like he mentioned in the start.

  • I worked at in a warehouse that used Hydrogen Fuel Cells to power forklifts. The refueling was quick and easy but boy did those things break down an awful lot. I mean there was almost always a queue of around 10-15 broken down at a time and the technicians could only fix about 2-5 a day by my estimates.

  • Cuz I'm going to believe that you guys know more than Elon

  • Now that's how you make ads. Take notes guys!

  • That survey was before 2018 when the Tesla rocked the car industry. I bet they aren’t saying that anymore

  • bmw is already ready to go with fuel cell tech. waiting on the global market to be "ready"

    • In the meantime they’ve released a range of battery electric vehicles including and electric M3

  • This hydro tech should happen otherwise we continue to ruin our climate and besides lithium production will erode and it will be impossible to sustain EV batteries.

  • No need for actor(s) for analogy, the graphics are good enough.

  • Well, my worry is how are batteries for evs going to impact the environment vs the inefficiency of hydrogen (and scarceness of it). Also, regenerative braking and solar panels on a hydrogen car would also help.

  • you lose energy making h2, just to make electricity... to charge a small battery. lol its an wasteful ev. I work with h2 powered equipment. they are junk and have been scrapped at the neighboring facility. so much waste to avoid a bigger battery, with battery swaps its as quick as fueling. h2 fuel stations often have issues same with the cells themselves. if I get through a shift without having a code set off its a miracle!

  • Another useful phrase besides PANIC - LEO goes GER (loss of electrons is oxidation, gain of electrons is reduction)

  • no

  • A lot of viewer time was wasted in the viewing of this video.

  • Hydrogen been touted as the solution, battery tech came and turned it into a afterthought. If someone wanted hydrogen to happen, it would have happened. It’s bunk tech, losses and changes are too much. Elon’s right up until now. Future might tell otherwise but all legacy makers are following Tesla’s lead with batteries, not Toyota’s with fuel cells.

  • Makes no sense, the energy you need to obtain the Hydrogen is way to high, plus then you carry around all that equipment in form of a fuel cell, it is not efficient, electric cars are much more simple, less parts, it is basically a battery and motors, simple to maintain and more reliable. If anything if you have a cheap way to obtain Hydrogen, then it may make sense to put a big fuel cell at the pump, then produce electricity that can charge the cars.

  • The BMW Hydrogen 7 actually COMBUSTS HYDROGEN! A 6 liter V12 burning hydrogen!

  • So I googled "what makes more co2, a car or a cow" and I got this answer "It's been estimated that methane gas from cows is 23 times more damaging to the climate than the carbon dioxide from cars." So why dfaq are you trying to fix cars, Don't just ignore the real problem ffs.

    • Firstly this answer you found should be looked into further to determine it accuracy. Secondly, cars and cows are both issues and there are enough people on the planet to work on both problems at the same time. Plus you’re watching a car channel and not a farming channel so that’s why they are not talking about cows. A immediate solution would be to drive stinky cars less and east less tasty meat but we both know that’s not going to happen.

  • the politics ideas for the next goverment in my country could make this actually possible and OBLIGATORY at some point. Costa Rica might not be the best example of a rich country for sure but we are having tons of issues on petroleum products and industries for years. sooooooo, let's see what happens, we are the guinea pig here.

  • happy pride

  • the hydrogen atom is a fucking simp

  • Electricity to Hydrogen to car storage tank to fuel cell to battery to motor rather than Electricity to car Battery to motor. 🤔

    • First principles people we don't need a Rube Goldberg machine, we need transportation that is simple to maintain

  • Okay, you didn't even touch efficiency, the most important argument against hydrogen. 🤔 And your main argument is that old-school car execs say it has a bright future... ?!

    • @Raghu Sajeev Agree, is not as convenient as an plug-in vehicle that you can just charge at home while sleeping.

    • Exactly. Hydrogen is just an EV with extra steps. And, it's not economical to scale. Much easier to produce and transport a lot of electricity than Hydrogen

  • EV owners can produce their own fuel. Hydrogen owners can pay for Hydrogen, let's see who's backing this movement, ohhhh the oil companies I wonder why.

  • No I don't own a Tesla

  • I believe Hydrogen vehicles still require a battery and the fuel cell runs more like a generator at a constant rate. Why add all this complexity, just store energy in a battery.

  • Why spend the electricity to create H at a greater loss than just charging a battery? What is the efficiency of the fuel cell?

    • Maybe 60% for the fuel cell and 70-80% for electrolysis and pressurizing. Leaves us with 40-50% overall efficiency while batteries achieve at least 80-90% overall efficiency. Twice as energy efficient.

  • #1 benefit of ownership of an EV, charging at home. Can I make HE and fill my Hydrogen car at home?

  • Clickbate! the cost of the energy is 4:1. I'll never be able to produce H at home. Thats why dirty fuel and auto co's like H.

  • Here is an easy way to remember cathode and anode. Cathode is positive because cats have paws.

  • Why you're wrong about Hydrogen fuel - a video with numbers, and less analogies: eeclone.info/glo/k5iTg4GgZ32qxo4/video

  • Interesting. Only time will tell. :-) God bless, Revelation 214:

  • We just need porche to finish the synthetic fuel that they are creating for ICE platforms. It seems impervious to me to completely wipe out all vehicles that have been made since the beginning of time that use ice technology and try and replace it with something that you don't even know is going to last forever and then on top of that all of the recalls. We need to think smarter not harder. Electric cars only steal from the planet. They do not help it.

    • @Engineering the weird guy synthetic lubricants exist but will take out oil companies. Different fuels that work in an ICE engine that dont actually leave carbon behind have been made but again will kill industries. Why do you think car manufacturers are going the battery route. It makes money. Just like cancer does. If you dont understand what it takes to make the batteries and the many bolts that were recalled then look into it. Electric cars will not last. No where near the time an ICE vehicle will. Original ICE engines are still on the road doing their job. Replacing the lube and fuel is not hard. Its only frowned upon. You know. Like chemo therapy. But mary janes illegal..

    • You think ice cars last forever? You also think fuel reserves are also going to last forever? And what recalls? Steal from the earth? How? For materials they use to manufacture the battery? The ones that are completely recyclable? Wb the materials that are needed to make a combustion car, or the oil that needs to be drilled and refined for every mile you drive? Where do you think that comes from? Mars?